Ready to breathe a sign of relief? Welcome to Ask Dr. Jodi where you get trauma-informed mental health and relationship advice that you won’t hear anywhere else. Today, we’re exploring the magic of Wicked as Lily and I dive into themes of friendship, bravery, and belonging. Together, we uncover how these universal lessons can inspire personal growth, combat anxiety, and empower us through storytelling. Perfect for fans of musicals, mental health conversations, and uplifting insights!
Hey there, I’m Dr. Jodi, and welcome back to Ask Dr. Jodi! Today, we’re diving into the magical world ofWickedwith my daughter, Lily. Together, we explore the film’s universal themes of friendship, bravery, and belonging, examining how they resonate with our deepest emotional needs. Join us as we break down the lessons this beloved story offers and reflect on its complex characters and their transformations.
Episode Summary
In this heartfelt episode, Dr. Jodi and Lily discuss their reactions toWicked and the powerful themes woven into its story. They explore how friendship and belonging shape human experience, why bravery is essential for personal growth, and how art can reflect the complexities of our inner lives. From Elphaba’s defiance to Glinda’s conflicted bravery, they unpack the layers of this extraordinary tale and its inspiring message of empowerment and connection.
Listeners passionate about musicals, mental health, and stories that challenge societal norms will love this deep dive intoWicked’smagical world.
Key Takeaways
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Thank you so much for listening toAsk Dr. Jodi!If you enjoyed today’s episode, please take a moment to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts and share it with someone who needs inspiration or help to heal!
[00:00:00] Dr Jodi Aman: Hey, I'm Dr. Jodi. I'm Lily. And tonight we're talking about the Wicked movie. We're talking about the themes that we loved and enjoyed and learned from and got inspired by from the Wicked movie. All right, here's the thing. Like it, Did you like it?
Lily: I loved it. I loved it. I cried so much.
Dr Jodi Aman: Lily saw it twice.
So, so yeah, we saw it again today together. Amazing. Beyond all expectations for me.
Lily: Yeah, me too. I wasn't, I didn't know what to expect. It's hard when things are like remade again when you love them.
Dr Jodi Aman: Yeah.
Lily: You know?
Dr Jodi Aman: Yeah. Well, we're used to that with theater though because there's always different renditions of our beloved characters.
Lily: Yeah, but it's the same, I mean, Wicked is the same script. But
Dr Jodi Aman: you're right. Oh, yeah. Huh. You're
Lily: right.
Dr Jodi Aman: But the same personality. And we knew it was gonna be different. I mean, we knew it was gonna be
Lily: different because it's longer. It's longer. Yeah.
Dr Jodi Aman: So they added a little bit because it's part one and part two of the [00:01:00] Theater of the musical, the Act One Act.
This is just Act one. So the movie that's out now is part one. It's just act one. So I want to see the whole thing. I haven't seen that. I haven't seen the show in years, but Lily and I listen to the music all the time and always cry to the music. So we brought all our tissues. We went with eight, there was eight of us there, and we actually found some cousins that were also in the same theater with us, but I handed out tissues to all of us because we knew the, there's themes in there that are so, so, so Relatable to all of us.
Themes about friendship or
Lily: Although I think we were the only two that cried. I don't think anyone else cried. But it's fine. Sometimes you have to
Dr Jodi Aman: know the music, right? There's more of it. A lot of the
Lily: people, whatever, they didn't know it as well. Sometimes it's hard to listen to There's a lot of songs, so
Dr Jodi Aman: We were the fangirls and then everyone else was Loved it.
Loved it. But they A lot of them hadn't even seen it or saw it very long ago. [00:02:00] Yeah. . Yeah. But, okay, so themes of Wicked. What are your favorite themes?
Lily: Well there's like so many, there's like obvious ones. I think a nice one is friendship. Yeah. Just like the friendship is so important. Well, just like being nice.
Be nice being that is a theme is just like,
Dr Jodi Aman: it's so simple. You know, throughout human history, we have this history of. I don't know. When our fear comes up, we try to blame somebody else or, you know, put, make somebody else feel bad, right? When we're afraid or when we feel bad, humans tend to turn it around and make somebody else feel bad.
Lily: Yeah.
Dr Jodi Aman: It's like they don't want to be left out or their fear of being judged or being excluded is so huge they try to do it to somebody else like almost so they can belong.
Lily: Yeah. You know? Well, it's kind of funny because we watched Gladiator the day before, Gladiator 2, and [00:03:00] I liked, I really liked it, but it's just funny the difference, I mean there's a lot of issues like with the world in Wicked, of course like all the social injustice is that are happening, but the friendship, there's obviously like good people in Gladiator too, But, yeah, it's just like, it was like more healing to watch Wicked than it was, obviously.
So it's interesting, like, when you said throughout history, like, in terms of people love violence, but then a lot, like, everyone I've talked to loves Wicked, even if they haven't. Even if they're like, oh, I don't really know the music or I didn't like that as a musical They really liked the story because it just it really is it's a universal story It just brings it brings people together and it's you know Not like
Dr Jodi Aman: if you're different if there's anything different about you, right Elphaba is green And so nobody has seen anyone green before so they're scared of her.
They don't know [00:04:00] what's wrong it's actually kind of crazy of
Lily: them because They have like, I mean, of course they're like, against animals. They have that. We have to explain
Dr Jodi Aman: it because some people maybe haven't seen the movie. Oh, spoiler alert! Spoiler alert! If you have not seen Wicked, maybe this episode would make sense to you, but let's kind of give you a little bit just in case.
Yeah,
Lily: so there's animals in the town.
Dr Jodi Aman: Yeah, there's animals that are personified. They talk, they live regular lives, like they're humanized.
Lily: But they're being put down, not put down, they're being oppressed and silenced.
Dr Jodi Aman: They want them to go back to animals, they want them to be not human anymore. Yeah. So these are like common themes in human history, right?
Is like the other and let's get power over somebody else. So, except for Elphaba has magic powers, right? So she has, she was born with magic powers. We don't really know why. We don't know why she was born green, but [00:05:00] but she has these magic powers.
Lily: Yeah, we don't. Well, her mama's
Dr Jodi Aman: drinking the green stuff, but.
We don't know what that, you know, what that means.
Lily: It's a magic, but that's what I'm saying, it's kind of crazy of them to be like, the munchkins are really gonna like freak out about something being green, like you guys aren't really Like,
Dr Jodi Aman: anyways, Munchkins are like subhumans too. I think they were treated as subhumans in some ways too.
Yeah,
Lily: I think, actually, yeah, you're
Dr Jodi Aman: right. Yeah. So there's a lot of like the other, you know, and in, in this fear of somebody who's different than you. And then there's like the social classes of that. And so, Everybody is the really basic theme really in the world and in the movie and everything is like, we want to belong and in that endeavor to belong, you may need to kick out somebody to like, because we bond in that fight.
Oh yeah.
Lily: That's what Jeff go at the end, the wizard. He says [00:06:00] that the best way to bind people is to have a common enemy. Yes.
Dr Jodi Aman: So if you, if there was an enemy or a common enemy and you wanted to belong, you, even if you don't feel that's right, you might side. That's what happens. Like, it's like mob mentality.
That's what happens in the world is you side. Because you want to belong so much. And let's talk about belonging for a second. Let's get into like, I'll put my teacher hat in for a bit, because I think this is really important for us to understand. It's a biological thing for humans to want to belong because we are social beings and we really only survive in a group.
So through prehistory. You know, when we were living in communities, we couldn't survive by ourself out there. It was too, the world was too dangerous to us naked humans without claws and fangs and those kind of things. And so we needed the community. And so if you were, If you did anything to get [00:07:00] yourself kicked out of the community, it really meant death.
And so, biologically, inside of us, we still have that feeling a little bit that we don't want to be kicked out because that means the end of us. But it doesn't. You know, there's not one group anymore and if you get kicked out of this one group or someone's judging you and or you don't feel a sense of belonging, you could find it somewhere else now.
But it feels so scary and upsetting and it increases our anxiety and maybe our depression because we think I'm unworthy of anybody liking me. When it's really those people's problems usually, right, for not liking you because they're, you know, worried about their self. I think a huge theme in this is like worrying about what other people think.
Lily: Well, yeah. I mean, they say there's like two different scenes. There's one where Galinda at the time was like I don't care what people think. And then Elphaba says, I doubt that. And then another time [00:08:00] when Fiyero says one thing about her, she doesn't care what people think or something like that.
And then she's like, and then Glinda says, of course she does. She pretends not to,
Dr Jodi Aman: so those are two
Lily: different. Yeah.
Dr Jodi Aman: Yeah. So Glinda pretends that she doesn't care, but she really cares. And yeah, I guess they're both doing the same thing. Right. And Elphaba pretends she doesn't care, but she really cares. And who among all of you are listening.
Pretends they don't care when they really care. We really care. And there's sometimes it's okay to care. Like of course we want to care what people think because we affect other people. And so if other, if we offend other people and they're upset or hurt from us, we do care what they think about us. Yeah.
But we don't care if people are in their own fear and they're judging This is the thing, when people judge you, they're judging themselves 10 times more. So if they're so in their fear about being judged, they're [00:09:00] very sensitive. They're so in fear about someone judging them and leaving them out. And so that overflows and they start judging other people.
Even people they love, they'll judge them because they're worried that they're going to get left out. Right? Do you ever have somebody be like, give you a critique or give you some feedback. And they're like, I'm doing it for your own good. They actually think that they're helping you when they're judging you, or when they're telling you like, this is a major mom and daughter thing, right?
Yeah. So, so that happens a lot with moms and daughters
Lily: and friends. If it's like a genuine, I mean, yeah, I think critique is like, you need to be, you can give consent for feedback.
Dr Jodi Aman: Yes, always ask for feedback. If you are trying to help somebody because you're worried that they're going to get left out or they're going to be not okay or something like that, you ask them if it's okay to give them feedback.
But mostly it's not. Mostly it just comes across like you're [00:10:00] judging them. There's not much good that comes out of it. It's usually stuff they already know. And they don't really need There's
Lily: also a difference between when Glinda says that she doesn't care what people think, that is like, it almost is like an excuse for how she can act like, pompous and selfish at the beginning.
As opposed to like, when Elphaba does it. She's just like being herself.
Dr Jodi Aman: Yeah.
Lily: There's like a difference in like, you can say you don't care what people think and then use it like, oh I don't care what people think and then just do bad things.
Dr Jodi Aman: Right. And then you could say, I don't care what people think, but let's talk about the development of their characters.
Cause I think it's really interesting that their bond develops, you know, at first they hate each other. They're total opposites. And and then soon Elphaba, like there's been some, there's situations where she thinks that Glinda was nice to her. She gave her the hat. [00:11:00] And so she thinks Glinda was nice to her.
And then she does something nice for Glinda. She's not totally sure that she didn't know that Glinda was doing it to be mean. She thought Glinda was doing it to be nice. And so she did this very nice gesture back to Glinda. And then she went to this party with the hat on and was made fun of. And Glinda, it's so, I love the character.
Such a complex character, Glinda, because she comes across as like, everyone look at me, I'm beautiful and everyone should love me and I'm popular. And you know, really selfish and self centered, but she does have a heart in there. And I think
Lily: that's really hard to play. Well, that's important. I mean, everyone, I think that's the point of Wicked is that people, that everyone is good and everyone is wicked a little bit.
Yeah. Nice. Well, I think people are contradictory.
Dr Jodi Aman: All
Lily: people
Dr Jodi Aman: are contradictory. I mean, yeah, like that's just like everyone's complex. Yeah. Yeah.
Lily: Like Glinda, it's [00:12:00] not like, Oh, Glinda actually is good. No, she doesn't mean things, but there are like, so does like, alpha, like everyone does. People aren't just one thing.
Dr Jodi Aman: But we all make mistakes and sometimes we make choices, maybe because we're feeling bad about ourselves or whatever, we do things that hurt other people, either meaning to or not. And we feel bad about it, of course, but so Elphaba, it's like, at first she is so ridiculed and everywhere she goes, she's used to people looking at her and wondering and being afraid of her and that kind of thing.
And she has, she's become defensive, right? So she's a little defensive about that. And Fiyero calls her out on that, right? But she's defensive about that. But there's this transition. And when she goes into, when she finally like learns how to fly and defining gravity, the song Defining Gravity, she's like Defying.
Defying. I didn't mean to say that. I know [00:13:00] the right word. I just said it wrong. Okay. So, I, when she's like, she's still a little defensive and beginning to like, Use empowerment. This is what I was thinking of. Like, sometimes they're defensive and there's this really fine line between defensiveness and empowerment.
Like when she's at the dance and she brings, she goes in with a hat and everyone's making fun of her and then she decides to dance. This is when Fiyero said she doesn't care what anyone thinks about her and Glinda says, oh she does.
Lily: Also, I don't know if we explained this but the hat was It's given to her by Glinda.
I did say that. Oh, you did say that?
Dr Jodi Aman: Yeah. Like, she was, she thought Glinda was doing something nice. Yeah, that, I, yeah. And she was doing something mean. And then she does something really nice for Glinda is, to get her, like, her magic, her first magic wand. And so, so she really thought it was a nice gesture.
And she never really finds out that she did it to be mean. No, she knows. She [00:14:00] kind of knows, I think, when people are making fun of her, but Glinda comes out and dances with her, and so that's when their friendship really changes and bonds because she's got a heart in there, and she really cares. Like, she knows that Glinda's a good person, and she doesn't really deserve that.
So she's not quite so shallow. She even, like, walks away from Pharaoh and doesn't care what Pharaoh thinks about her. To go and do this dance with with Elphaba. And it's a really beautiful scene and Elphaba is like crying and she's like, it's okay. And I mean, it's a really beautiful, very emotional scene.
I definitely cried that part.
Lily: Yeah. That was a good
Dr Jodi Aman: scene. It's a good scene.
Lily: What were you saying about the end? Were you saying the defensiveness and The fine line about defensiveness and empowerment.
Dr Jodi Aman: I think this scene right there in the dance when Glinda is dancing with her, it's like she starts dancing in defense of like acting like she doesn't care, right?
So she starts [00:15:00] dancing to kind of scare them, acting like she doesn't care, being a little bit different, like You know how sometimes you like, people think that you're different and you like, lean into being different so that you like, don't, you like, you know, you kind of trick your brain into thinking, I don't care, I'm doing it on purpose, right?
So she starts to do that, but then when Glinda dances with her, it becomes an empowering thing. Because, you know, Glinda's trying to empower her. Her support is like, you got this, or you could do this. Like, she's often saying that, like, giving confidence.
Lily: But then in Defying Gravity, she, Glinda does not dance with her, like, in the end of the movie.
She doesn't go with her. And And Elphaba finds her own sort of empowerment at the end of that. So that's actually two really nice parallels. Yeah,
Dr Jodi Aman: and you're left wondering really, like, is Glinda she's just conflicted. She's so conflicted. She's did a lot of transformation, but she just [00:16:00] doesn't have the bravery.
There's other parts in the movie, like during the dance, she's got bravery. She's got bravery a lot of times, and at this moment she is just not brave enough to go with her. And so, but it was important for Elphaba because she really needed to go on her own and from her support, she was able to.
Like, so Glinda's supportive. She doesn't go with her, but she's supportive, and she's like, her, she is, Total confidence in Elphaba which is really powerful and like love for her. They have love for each other.
Lily: Yeah
Dr Jodi Aman: I love how they hold hands a lot in the movie And I really like the
Lily: beginning in this the end of Defying Gravity when They're like, I hope you're happy And then the last time I love it They're like
Dr Jodi Aman: mad at each other.
I hope
Lily: you're happy Yeah, and then at the end she's like, I hope you're
Dr Jodi Aman: happy.
Lily: Yeah. And then it's like that, but that one's real. Like, she's like, I really hope each other. They're both saying
Dr Jodi Aman: that. I love that transformation. No, well that,
Lily: yeah. And then they're singing [00:17:00] together, but then it's so good when Elphaba, Cynthia Erivo is like, boom at the end.
And then, Ariana Grande as Glinda is crying. Yeah, she's like so proud of her friend. But she's sad and scared because she wasn't as brave and she could have gone with her and it could have been. But she's so proud of her
Dr Jodi Aman: though. She's so proud of her and this is like supportive. When you have a supportive friend, I think like not having that friend, I don't know if she would have done what she did, you know?
Lily: Not that she need, but she didn't need Glinda, but I don't know. We need people. I mean,
Dr Jodi Aman: I'm, we are social beings and people need people. Totally, Glinda. I mean, people need people. Like, we need our friend and they loved each other. It also
Lily: shows the importance of like, you just need one good friend. I mean, like, you don't need a lot.
Dr Jodi Aman: Yeah. You can have a sense of belonging with one person and you can have a sense of belonging with the community or [00:18:00] different groups and different levels of belonging. Yeah. But the sense of belonging is important because it makes you feel valued, right? We don't feel like we have value unless we have that sense of belonging.
Yeah. And sometimes we have an idea if we belong to that group then we'll be okay and we've made it. And then we leave other things behind or don't recognize the other places we belong that matter more and mean more. But we're like trying to get to this like popular group or something. Popular. But yeah.
Or trying to like make sure nobody, or sometimes we isolate ourselves because we don't want anyone to judge us. We're so afraid of being judged that if we isolate ourselves we don't get judged at all. But then you're not happy either. So we're trying to protect ourselves from like, feeling bad. But when you're isolated, you feel bad because you're not supposed to be isolated, but you're a social being, you're supposed to be with people.
You need that sense of belonging. So sometimes we isolate [00:19:00] ourselves. Sometimes people leave us out. That's usually about them. You know, unless we've really offended people and they've set limits with us, but they probably asked us in the past and we didn't read those feedback to like be nicer if that has happened to you.
And sometimes, you know, sometimes, yeah. Um, when you have friendships or relationships that are toxic or hard on you and make you feel betrayed, it does affect you. It does affect you for a while. Like when you have a friend who were, you were really close with and then they turn, it didn't happen in the movie.
I just was talking about, I was thinking about friendship in general. It affects us, right? So Elphaba, Nobody wanted to be her friend forever. And then that was really traumatic. Her parents didn't like her. Her dad always liked her, you know, preferred her sister over her, treated her like a second class citizen.
That is traumatic for somebody. And then of course it was hard [00:20:00] for her to trust anybody. Well, that's
Lily: okay. Also
Dr Jodi Aman: Nessa. Nessa is the sister. Nessa
Lily: is the
Dr Jodi Aman: sister. She's in a wheelchair.
Lily: Yeah. But she. She she's very, she's good to Elphaba. in a way that like, she'll, she didn't like, avoid her, like she didn't completely shun her, but she didn't provide the sort of friendship that Glenda did because she wasn't brave either at all.
I mean, in certain ways, but in terms of like, supporting Elphaba, she didn't because she, like at the dance, she just like, wow, she was concerned because people were laughing for her sister, but she just, she didn't say anything. She just watched in horror, maybe because she was embarrassed, maybe.
Dr Jodi Aman: Like, she didn't do it.
She didn't go out there and dance with her. She's like, I can't watch this. Yeah, so
Lily: that's the other thing is that Nessa, I mean, Nessa has her own hardships to go through in Sense of Other in this story. And she is sweet, like she hangs out with her sister, but she doesn't Yeah, she doesn't have [00:21:00] the sort of bravery.
It's especially in that scene. She never stuck up for her. We never
Dr Jodi Aman: see Nessa stand up for her.
Lily: Yeah,
Dr Jodi Aman: and
Lily: so that's like the duality of like the wickedness and the goodness. Like there's good in her but also she didn't really, yeah, she's like had her own issues to deal with and didn't really support her sister at all.
Right. Like in this movie.
Dr Jodi Aman: Right, and it wasn't like she, you didn't really see her in many situations where she had an opportunity to stand up for her sister, but They would have showed it if that was part of the character. You know what I mean? Yeah,
Lily: there's a few.
Dr Jodi Aman: Just the dance was a big thing.
The dance
Lily: and then even the beginning. Oh in the beginning. The beginning She's like, what are you doing?
Dr Jodi Aman: That's because
Lily: it was
Dr Jodi Aman: supposed to be The sister was supposed to go off to school and finally have independence. Yeah. Elphaba was not supposed to go at all. And so she, you know, she was coddled forever because she was in this wheelchair and she finally had some independence.
Lily: Yeah.
Dr Jodi Aman: And wanted that independence [00:22:00] so bad. She was looking forward to it so much. And I, and so that there, you know, everyone's coming up with their own baggage, right? So in every relationship someone has baggage and you could under, you could see how like that's selfish in some way and then you could understand it and relate to it because we could have empathy for that too, you know?
Lily: Yeah.
Dr Jodi Aman: So it's interesting. Very it's very rare we see a movie with such complex characters. Sometimes they're trying to fit so much in, especially action movies are trying to put so much action in that there's not enough time for character development.
Lily: Yeah.
Dr Jodi Aman: You know?
Lily: And, I mean, Fiero, too. He's another one.
He sings a song about dancing through life is just like don't care about anything and you won't get hurt. But He's got transformation! Yeah, it's coming. Actually, it already started. It already started. He cared about the Yeah. He did. Care about some
Dr Jodi Aman: Animal rights. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So we covered, so some of [00:23:00] the things we covered friendship, how friendship lifts you up, how friendship's so important because a sense of belonging or sense of community is so important to us humans.
They've done tons of studies about just even little conversations or having time with friends or time with girlfriends extends your life and people who are alone, it's like smoking cigarettes. It's that bad for you, right? There's, it's that dangerous to our health. So our mental health and our physical health is totally connected because if we're not happy and we don't have a purpose and we don't have a community, you know, our body just like doesn't have a will to live, you know, and so disease comes.
So it's just as bad as smoking. Have girlfriends. I love this movie also because it's a total movie for like moms and daughters to go to. It's a movie for girlfriends to go to.
Lily: For anyone. For anybody, but I
Dr Jodi Aman: love it because it's like, I mean, I don't know. We're theater nerds. So we, you know, we're totally [00:24:00] awesome.
Yeah. We like sing the song for, you know, the last 20 years in the car. Fifteen at least. Yeah, sure.
Lily: Yeah, we do.
Dr Jodi Aman: Just blasting. So, Lily and I in the car just like singing. Oh my gosh. We just keep going. And I, like, have no pitch. But we have a lot of fun.
Lily: But yeah, it is like a female empowerment. Female empowerment.
Dr Jodi Aman: Yeah, it's about friends. And so go there to grab your friends, go see this movie, come back and comment. Tell us about your friends. Subscribe to my channel, like hit the bell because we come live every Monday at 8 PM, at least I do, Lily joins me once or twice a month and I do live call ins. for some episodes and some topics.
But if you want, you could come to my website, https://jodiaman.com/live and you could get the calendar on your calendar so you could get [00:25:00] the topics for each week and you could decide if you want to be a calling guest and you could come sign up and you could be a calling guest and we could help you live.
Live live. So fun. Every Monday at 8 p. m. we have a blast. If you're listening to this on the podcast, please leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts. If that's the whatever the platform you're on, that'd be great. So, so excited. So excited. We're winding down this year, 2024. We have tons of great topics for you in 2025, so we can't wait.
So subscribe, hang out with us, and we will see you next Monday.