Ready to breathe a sign of relief? Welcome to Ask Dr. Jodi where you get trauma-informed mental health and relationship advice that you won’t hear anywhere else. Today, we’re exploring the surprising psychological appeal of horror movies with Dr. Jodi Aman and her daughter Lily. Together, we discuss how watching scary films can help some people relieve anxiety and stress. Join us for a fun and insightful look at empathy, fear, and the healing power of catharsis.
Hey there, I'm Dr. Jodi Aman, and welcome back to Ask Dr. Jodi podcast. Today, we’re exploring why so many people are drawn to horror movies—and whether watching them can actually be a therapeutic release. I’ll be joined by my daughter, Lily, as we dive into the psychology of scary films, catharsis, and why some of us find comfort in the thrill of fear while others don’t.
In this intriguing episode, Dr. Jodi Aman and her daughter, Lily, examine the allure and psychology behind horror movies. Together, they discuss how horror can serve as a form of catharsis, offering a release from stress and anxiety, particularly for those who process trauma or enjoy a good scare. With references to Aristotle's concept of catharsis and Lily’s personal insights, they delve into why some people are drawn to scary films while others avoid them. The episode also unpacks the role empathy plays in our responses to horror, the healing benefits of shared emotional experiences, and how art—whether a scary movie or a Greek tragedy, can mirror our deepest emotions.
Listeners who experience anxiety, are interested in mental health, or enjoy exploring psychological phenomena will find this episode both engaging and relatable.
Thank you so much for listening! If you enjoyed today’s episode, please take a moment to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts and share it with someone who needs inspiration or help to heal!
[00:00:00] Dr Jodi Aman: Hey, I'm Dr. Jodi.
[00:00:01] Lily: And I'm Lily.
[00:00:02] Dr Jodi Aman: And tonight we're talking about the catharsis of watching scary movies or horror movies. So a lot of people like horror movies and scary movies. Obviously they wouldn't make them unless there was a huge attraction to these kind of movies. And tonight we're going to talk about Why?
[00:00:20] Dr Jodi Aman: We have some different opinions and we have some really more questions than answers for you tonight, probably.
[00:00:26] Lily: Yeah, I don't know if we have any answers.
[00:00:28] Dr Jodi Aman: No,
[00:00:29] Lily: no information.
[00:00:30] Dr Jodi Aman: No information. Yeah, it's a mystery and even when we did some research online it seems to be a psychological mystery why some people like scary movies and it helps them have a catharsis, and we're gonna define catharsis for you, and why some people are actually more triggered and more triggered.
[00:00:46] Dr Jodi Aman: dysregulated by a scary movie like moi.
[00:00:51] Lily: Yeah, I like serial movies. You don't.
[00:00:55] Dr Jodi Aman: I do not.
[00:00:56] Lily: But I'm new. Hopped on the
[00:00:59] Dr Jodi Aman: Bandwagon?
[00:01:00] Lily: Is that late? Hopped on the wagon late.
[00:01:03] Dr Jodi Aman: Hopped on the bandwagon late? We had a really long day and this is the second time we're recording. This is pre recorded because I'm out of town.
[00:01:10] Dr Jodi Aman: For the, instead of doing a live show tonight. This is our second recording. We're like We had a really long day today, actually. So bear with us. We did a scary movie for the catharsis, actually. We had a lot of baby time. We were in the car for a very long time. But, it was, We need a catharsis like right now.
[00:01:29] Lily: What if we just cry instead of
[00:01:31] Dr Jodi Aman: We could just cry instead of
[00:01:32] Lily: This is scary. This day was scary. Talking about a scary movie.
[00:01:36] Dr Jodi Aman: It wasn't scary in any way, but
[00:01:38] Lily: No, it wasn't.
[00:01:38] Dr Jodi Aman: It's so interesting because people, I know people, because I work with a lot of people who have panic attacks, they have anxiety, they have depression, they have history of trauma, and some of them really like scary movies.
[00:01:49] Dr Jodi Aman: And some of them, and so I have some ideas and some theory about this, but for the people who like them, they do provide a catharsis. So a catharsis is a release of energy. It comes from the word purification catharsis. Does it? Yeah. Catharsis was with a K is from ancient Greek, right? Aristotle used the word catharsis.
[00:02:14] Dr Jodi Aman: There's, you see it. Yeah. But you see it sometimes with a C and sometimes with a K. In some places it says they're actually the same word. It's just that, the Greek alphabet used K. But Aristotle talked about it as the audience experience of the tragedy when they're watching a show.
[00:02:33] Dr Jodi Aman: And I think we'll talk a little bit about being an audience to a show and what, how that is good for us or heals us. And And so we are so we're going to talk about that a little bit and why that is helpful to helping us bring out our emotions or make meaning around them. When you have trauma, you have this experience and there's a lot of chaos in that experience of the trauma.
[00:03:00] Dr Jodi Aman: And so we have to try to make some kind of order of it, order, order to it, sense of it. And so we attach some meaning to it. And it's hard to do that when you're experiencing it. Before you process the trauma, it's like you're reliving it because It's in present time until it's processed and made meaning and you put it in the memory, and then you don't have the same consequences of trauma after you do that, but before you process the trauma, it's like raw.
[00:03:30] Dr Jodi Aman: It's like you're living it currently in present time. time. And so when people went to a show or watched a fiction and experienced the characters go through a dramatic event or a traumatic time or a crisis or something, they were able to process their own trauma by watching that. And I'm saying it in past tense, but that was like how Aristotle came up with the word catharsis because it's like a release of emotions or a purification.
[00:04:01] Dr Jodi Aman: So the connotation is that it's a healing experience.
[00:04:06] Lily: Yeah. Yeah, but yes, but he didn't mean it like that. We don't know what he meant.
[00:04:11] Dr Jodi Aman: We don't know what he meant
[00:04:12] Lily: just for clarification.
[00:04:15] Dr Jodi Aman: We don't know what Aristotle meant.
[00:04:17] Lily: Yeah. But that is widely accepted as the purification and newer studies.
[00:04:23] Dr Jodi Aman: Because it's so long we have watched entertainment. As a way to either come out of our lives, come out of our head, get a distraction from what we're going through survive it, and also doesn't have some therapeutic benefits to help us understand things, understand people, reconnect to the love or the humanity.
[00:04:48] Lily: Okay, so then why don't you like it? Like, why don't some people like it?
[00:04:51] Dr Jodi Aman: I love story. I love drama, dramatic story. Every story that you're going to read or see on TV, if there's no drama and there's no crisis, like it's boring, no one will watch it. There's got to be some kind of crisis, right?
[00:05:04] Dr Jodi Aman: And to grab at our emotions. So we go on this journey with the characters and and we could relate or see yourself in the characters or feel understanding, sometimes when you see the characters go through something, you feel like an understanding of it. So that's all movies, but we're talking specifically about horror movies.
[00:05:23] Dr Jodi Aman: I experienced that with other kind of movies, but not with horror movies.
[00:05:27] Lily: I wonder if it's just like the dosage you make, like everyone, everyone's different. So it could be like if stories help you process information, it helps the, it helps humanity. Since Forever Story Art helps you process emotions, it helps you I don't know, get through and stress you.
[00:05:45] Lily: It, I don't know. It provides a lot for you and if but then it depends on people are all different. Some people don't like sad movies, but I love watching sad movies and crying to them. But some people are just like, why did I ever watch that? And so I wonder if it's, if people's preferences are, I don't know, there's not an, I'm sure there's an explanation, but we don't have an explanation for why some people like mint chocolate chip ice cream and some people don't.
[00:06:13] Lily: It's just our individuality, so that makes sense.
[00:06:15] Dr Jodi Aman: Our acquired taste.
[00:06:17] Lily: Or acquired taste or like I like if your whole family likes Horror movies. You're gonna grow up. You might grow up liking that. Desensitized and
[00:06:24] Dr Jodi Aman: yeah, and if your whole family likes sports, you grow up liking sports or not always.
[00:06:28] Lily: Is this the kind of thing where the only fears that are, you're born with are like a fear of The dark and something else. Oh, I don't even know. There's like a fact that you're only born with two fears.
[00:06:41] Dr Jodi Aman: I think it's three. It's abandonment, rejection, and there's three because it's my book.
[00:06:47] Dr Jodi Aman: Abandonment, rejection, and being trapped. Those are like the three basic fears.
[00:06:53] Lily: Oh,
[00:06:53] Dr Jodi Aman: and they're really all,
[00:06:54] Lily: I really just really thought it was the fear of the dark.
[00:06:58] Dr Jodi Aman: I really did a lot of research. And so if you think about it, a fear of rejection and fear of abandonment and then fear of there's a thumbs up when I'm doing that.
[00:07:07] Dr Jodi Aman: counting on my fingers and a fear of being trapped are actually all the same fear. It's a fear of not being unworthy, like you're unworthy so someone leaves you, or you're unworthy of being accepted so you're abandoned, or you're unworthy of, it's me you're unworthy of I don't know if you all could see this in the recording, but we're getting the thumbs up on our screen like Zoom has those emojis.
[00:07:29] Dr Jodi Aman: Or fear of being trapped is you're not worthy of freedom, right? So there's a, there's really a fear that you're unworthy or unloved is the basic human fear because we're social beings and we need to be belong. So the catharsis of scary movies for some people, and we're thinking about this a little bit too, like people who have experienced trauma.
[00:07:50] Dr Jodi Aman: You'd think that they couldn't handle that, but it's really split down the middle too. We're also thinking is that people with more empathy can't watch it. Like I was saying cause we were discussing it a little bit beforehand, but I was saying that I have a lot of empathy. So when I watch a scary movie, it's like I'm experiencing it and I get really dysregulated and really upset.
[00:08:11] Dr Jodi Aman: And I don't. And I, I feel vulnerable of the world,
[00:08:15] Lily: But then I was like, I feel like I'm a, an empathetic person and I don't mind watching.
[00:08:23] Dr Jodi Aman: Because you think of it as fiction. They're actors.
[00:08:25] Lily: I do.
[00:08:26] Lily: Yes, I do. I know. I feel like I know that they're like what the camp, what the set looks like.
[00:08:32] Lily: Behind the,
[00:08:32] Dr Jodi Aman: you could imagine what the set looks like. I can't.
[00:08:33] Lily: You're right. I can imagine. And I know that they're acting in like everyone does, but I, that doesn't bother me because I know that they're actors and, but if I watch like the news, then I, I will get upset or true crime. I still like
[00:08:50] Lily: I don't know why, but it is more upsetting than a horror movie. True Crime will make me feel gross. But I will watch it. I watch it with my dad. With dad.
[00:08:59] Dr Jodi Aman: We,
[00:09:00] Dr Jodi Aman: yeah, so there's a, the different you wouldn't watch them alone.
[00:09:03] Lily: You're right, I wouldn't watch them, I wouldn't watch a horror movie alone as much either.
[00:09:08] Lily: Probably ever. I only like it when I'm watching it with friends and we're all scared. I don't even I don't even like watching it.
[00:09:15] Dr Jodi Aman: Yeah, there's a bonding.
[00:09:17] Lily: I don't even like watching it when I'm the only one scared. That's not fun because I think they're gonna scare me.
[00:09:21] Lily: I don't I don't like being scared. I'm not like an adrenaline junkie. I don't like
[00:09:26] Dr Jodi Aman: jumping out of airplanes.
[00:09:27] Lily: No,
[00:09:27] Lily: I will never.
[00:09:28] Dr Jodi Aman: So it's interesting because it's split down the middle. So it's not if you have empathy, no. Half of the people have empathy, and half the people don't. Half the people experience big trauma, like half of them don't.
[00:09:38] Dr Jodi Aman: So that's not necessarily, the answer. And so the only answer we could come up with is the fact that it's the way we make meaning around it. Because there are adrenaline junkies, there are people who love that thrill of going fast or jumping out of a plane or bungee jumping or something. And then there's people who hate that kind of stuff.
[00:10:00] Dr Jodi Aman: It's the same hormone, right? So it's the same biological experience, but it's the meaning that we make around how we feel it that makes a difference.
[00:10:11] Lily: So then that's, that is still like the dosage. Like you, I don't know if you, because, I don't know, because that they just want more than I do when I'm, I only want a little bit.
[00:10:24] Lily: Is that what you're saying?
[00:10:26] Dr Jodi Aman: I don't know.
[00:10:26] Dr Jodi Aman: There's some people like if they're having trouble accessing that fear, they have it, but they're pushing it down because they're really afraid of letting it come out. If, and this could be unconscious, you're really afraid of letting it come out because you're afraid that you'll go off some insanity cliff and never come back to yourself.
[00:10:42] Dr Jodi Aman: So people really keep it under lock and key, like not wanting to get anxious. But if you're watching a scary movie, there's ability to go there, even if it's temporary, and not and feel like you're still safe. Like you know that in reality you're safe. And so that's why some people are able to go there.
[00:11:01] Dr Jodi Aman: But I'm not. I guess if it was like really obviously or crazy fiction, I'd be okay. But like I was thinking about, Like the Lord of the Rings. There's upsetting things that happen in the Lord of the Rings or in Harry Potter or Hunger Games. There's very upsetting things that happen that are disturbing.
[00:11:22] Dr Jodi Aman: I do get my nervous system is thrown off by those things.
[00:11:25] Lily: Let me know that they're not scary movies. Like they're not generally considered as scary movies,
[00:11:30] Dr Jodi Aman: but
[00:11:31] Dr Jodi Aman: for me, they're upsetting, anything that's upsetting, anything that's upsetting, kids in trouble or people dying. And so all of that stuff, for me, I experienced a deregulation on that.
[00:11:44] Dr Jodi Aman: Like I feel vulnerable in the world. I'll have nightmares. I could watch that stuff. Like I did watch Game of Thrones and I did watch. Outlander, but definitely would have bad dreams about it. Like definitely my body was processing and some nights I would have to watch a comedy. I would have to do the catharsis with the comedy, like the laughter releases it for me.
[00:12:06] Dr Jodi Aman: And I was thinking that sometimes there's dramas and so it's such a really Tender or dramatic scene. And then there's something funny to help the audience release.
[00:12:14] Lily: Yeah. And then everyone laughs
[00:12:15] Lily: so hard.
[00:12:16] Dr Jodi Aman: Yeah. It's like really outrageously funny because you need to release that tension that you're feeling.
[00:12:22] Dr Jodi Aman: So sometimes storylines or sometimes artistic director.
[00:12:26] Lily: That's actually what we talked about last time I was on, because we were talking about how like comedy can be dealt with and it can help you with trauma or dealing with the hard times.
[00:12:39] Dr Jodi Aman: But laughter, any comedy and laughter increases your neuroplasticity in your brain.
[00:12:44] Dr Jodi Aman: And so if you're trying to shift a feeling or emotion or a pattern or a way you're thinking or something like that. Increasing your neuroplasticity. There's other ways to do it, like music and movement, those kind of things. Laughter is a very quick way to increase your neuroplasticity. . So I, through time Memorial people have used entertainment.
[00:13:09] Dr Jodi Aman: Like back in history there was like plays and watching
[00:13:13] Dr Jodi Aman: theaters.
[00:13:14] Lily: Aristotle's, like that's where catharsis about. Or was speaking, like the first time you mentioned it in Poetics was about tragedy and what tragedy does to the viewer. But something, cause I'm in a, I'm in a catharsis class and something about that we're talking about is that that like the chorus, like the Greek chorus isn't necessarily as much of there's an audience watching the chorus.
[00:13:42] Lily: It's like the audience is. Participating in it and also feeling the same things as the performers and they're like it's like a group Thing that like the group therapy gets everyone Yeah, it's like group therapy and the catharsis happens through that song and dance that is like almost Participated with the audience like there's a more of a meshing between like stage and audience.
[00:14:07] Dr Jodi Aman: I don't even know there's been a lot of research on the transformative power of being in a live audience watching live theater. There's a connection. There's a, there's you're having a common experience together.
[00:14:20] Lily: There's a heartbeats.
[00:14:22] Lily: Your heart beats a lot.
[00:14:23] Dr Jodi Aman: Your heart beats a lot.
[00:14:25] Lily: Like the audience, there are studies that like in a live theater performance that your heartbeats will can sync. I think, that sounds crazy, but I think
[00:14:34] Lily: there was
[00:14:34] Dr Jodi Aman: I have to find that article and then I'll link to it. I'll find that article because it's really amazing how the audience, there's a connection that happens in an audience.
[00:14:43] Lily: Yeah.
[00:14:44] Dr Jodi Aman: for watching it and I feel like that is really healing.
[00:14:47] Dr Jodi Aman: There's stuff that's really powerful because they're social beings. There's something really powerful that could happen in groups and being witnessed. And witnessing in a group that is powerfully healing for us. And there's something that can't happen necessarily just one on one therapy. Yeah.
[00:15:05] Lily: Yeah.
[00:15:06] Dr Jodi Aman: In narrative therapy, we do this thing called definitional ceremony and somebody. And so I would interview the client about their story and I'd have an audience listening to it. And then I would like a couple of people I would invite in. So I'd have a client, like old clients of mine that I've worked
[00:15:22] Lily: with in the client is obviously they know.
[00:15:24] Dr Jodi Aman: They, and it can be somewhat inside your experience. So if I'm working with someone who's been sexually abused, I invite some old clients who've had that experience and they listen. So I interview the client about not like the horrible and the tragedy, but I interview them about the resilience and what, how they've, what they've done despite having that experience.
[00:15:45] Dr Jodi Aman: So their preferred story, their preferred identity. And then I interview the other clients and my client is an audience to those, them and they could see themselves through someone's eyes because we're not having a conversation together. They're able to have that distance to be able to just witness their story through someone's eyes.
[00:16:06] Dr Jodi Aman: So it's there's a telling of the story, then there's a retelling of the story. And then I go back to my client, they're in the audience again. They're all in the same room, there's like a wall that we're not talking to each other. We're, and so then I would interview my client about what they heard.
[00:16:22] Dr Jodi Aman: So there's a telling of the story, a retelling, and then a retelling of the telling, and that it's a really powerful healing experience. So there's something about, so it's not only a horror movie, it could be like any kind of drama.
[00:16:38] Dr Jodi Aman: Yeah.
[00:16:39] Dr Jodi Aman: And some people like horror movies because they're maybe so ridiculous or so fictional it's a safer way to have that catharsis.
[00:16:45] Lily: And some people are the opposite.
[00:16:47] Dr Jodi Aman: I said be like a real story. It is true. Because I really want someone to understand what they're feeling, they want realness or something. And so I think that's a matter of taste
[00:16:57] Dr Jodi Aman: or
[00:16:57] Dr Jodi Aman: the matter of meeting making. So it's a matter of I like chocolate chip ice cream or I, what would I like in the meeting?
[00:17:05] Dr Jodi Aman: I make like a scary movie. Makes me upset for no reason. That's my meaning. And so I'm like, I'm avoiding that, but I can, there's some things that anxiety wants you to avoid because you're like, that's scary. That's not, that's out of my comfort zone.
[00:17:19] Lily: Yeah.
[00:17:19] Dr Jodi Aman: But you sacrifice things if you're missing out on that.
[00:17:23] Dr Jodi Aman: I don't feel if I don't watch horror movies, I don't feel like I'm missing out on the whole like opportunity in the world. You know what I
[00:17:31] Dr Jodi Aman: mean? Yeah.
[00:17:32] Dr Jodi Aman: So it's okay for me to be like,
[00:17:33] Lily: yeah, it's not like you're like, it's not like the whole family's watching horror movies and you're like, I'm messing out with my family.
[00:17:41] Lily: Like
[00:17:41] Dr Jodi Aman: sometimes
[00:17:42] Dr Jodi Aman: I do choose not to watch a movie.
[00:17:44] Lily: Yes, but yeah, but it's a conscious choice. You're like, I don't need. It's not like you're afraid of it. You're just like I don't need to feel that way to me.
[00:17:50] Dr Jodi Aman: Yeah. So sometimes I would watch that movies with people and I, or with family and I would feel upset.
[00:17:59] Dr Jodi Aman: I'm okay by the next day or something, but my whole body feels upset. Like I said, I would have nightmares sometimes, but I remember seeing Titanic for the first time. And I remember this really clearly because it was first time I was with my husband. Okay. And it was first when he saw me like have this reaction where my anxiety came out and I was like we need like an alarm system.
[00:18:21] Dr Jodi Aman: It wasn't, it was like, I was vulnerable in the world. My, my system was so dysregulated and I was having panic. And I was thinking like, we're unsafe everywhere. And that's where, thinking about the sinking ship and then getting burglarized doesn't seem to connect, but to me, I was just like, the world is a scary place.
[00:18:46] Dr Jodi Aman: And that's, this is not a good feeling. I would have missed Titanic if I didn't watch it, because it's a classic. But and so there's some movies I watch and I'm a little bit better now than I was back then, especially if I know what's going to happen. Like I could prepare myself. I'd rather read the book first.
[00:19:01] Dr Jodi Aman: And, but I've in culture, I taught myself to, to deal with harder.
[00:19:06] Lily: Yeah, I do feel like you're a lot better, but. It's not like you need it to be, but you do watch, you watch all of Game of Thrones. Yeah. That's upsetting. And I've watched those none of us that we've really been talking about this horror.
[00:19:19] Dr Jodi Aman: No, I know, but I'm,
[00:19:21] Dr Jodi Aman: it's ridiculous how yeah, or forget it. I know, even about Lord of the Rings, I'm like,
[00:19:30] Lily: Yeah, but that's the matter.
[00:19:31] Dr Jodi Aman: But to each its own really, to each its own it's okay. If I was talking to my nephew today and he was saying he only, he likes nonfiction.
[00:19:39] Dr Jodi Aman: Like he just enjoys it more. He doesn't, he can't get into fiction, which is like crazy to me because I love fiction. I love stories. I think they're really important for people to get you out of your head, to get in somebody else's story. But nonfiction could do that too. And mostly nonfiction could talk about, and you could learn something.
[00:19:57] Dr Jodi Aman: So that's really powerful. He wasn't really talking about self help. He you know, that's not what he's interested in. But some people who have anxiety and panic read self help. Of course, I've written self help. My books are available. You can go in one of these corners and get the card and get to my book.
[00:20:13] Dr Jodi Aman: But, but some people read so many self help books and they actually really are giving a lot of attention to their problem. That's not okay either. Alright, I'm so glad you watched. I guess we gave you more questions than answers. If you are someone that feels the catharsis of horror movies and you're like, something's wrong with me, nope.
[00:20:33] Dr Jodi Aman: Nothing is wrong with you. It is okay. It is a very human thing that has been going on for millennia. Humans having catharsis from watching crisis drama unfolding, whether it's fiction or in the gladiator ring, basically, how awful is that? But yeah, really, if you look at throughout history, they were doing those kind of things.
[00:20:58] Dr Jodi Aman: And obviously there's something. Some kind of catharsis that's happening for people who are living through really hard times that, that process it in that way, it feels like a sad part of human history, but I don't know, I guess I, I shouldn't judge really, but I do judge gladiators.
[00:21:17] Dr Jodi Aman: You were putting human slaves and with it and
[00:21:19] Lily: yeah, that's different than like scream.
[00:21:22] Lily: Scream isn't really that watching horror movies like I like it
[00:21:26] Dr Jodi Aman: but it's still us like
[00:21:27] Lily: it's like true crime.
[00:21:28] Dr Jodi Aman: I know No,
[00:21:29] Lily: it's not. No, it's not. No, it's not. No, it's not because we don't want I don't I'd rather not have true crime Then yeah, then watch whatever
[00:21:38] Lily: And tease their own.
[00:21:39] Dr Jodi Aman: It's all over Netflix it's all over prime like These things sell.
[00:21:45] Dr Jodi Aman: And so wondering what's wrong with us or what's right about watching these things that gives us catharsis that helps us somehow cope with our world or does this make it worse or what is going on? And, if you look that up and psychologically, I don't think anyone has a true answer. I think for everybody, they have a different kind of experience, but there's something that has Did the test of time.
[00:22:13] Dr Jodi Aman: Is there something to look at? There is that, that like inner violence in us or something like that, that we really still have to heal or there's a history of trauma that we have to heal or we're living out through these other traumas that maybe. Maybe it is really a call to healing for us, but I don't know.
[00:22:32] Dr Jodi Aman: If you like horror movies, good on ya. That's great. That doesn't mean anything bad. It means that you are doing it your way and you're liking it and you're making meaning around it the way that you like it. So thanks for watching and we are live every Monday at 8 p. m. Sometimes it's me. Sometimes Lily's with me.
[00:22:53] Dr Jodi Aman: We always have a new topic. So come on over to my website https://www.jodiaman.com/guide . Get my Generation Z Mental Health Resource Guide and you'll get on the list to get the notifications for every topic of our episode that, that week so you could know what's going on. And if you come over to YouTube and watch it there, you could Ask questions live.
[00:23:16] Dr Jodi Aman: Sometimes we have a call in feature. So look for that too. So get the, click the link, click the dot bell and come watch us live wherever it is. We don't know if we're on mirror or not. All right. See you next week. Bye.